These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on 
the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000.  A large portion 
of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list 
members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain 
from sharing this data with non list members.  When the list ended, it was 
urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it 
seemed like a good idea all around.

I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in 
some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and 
refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel 
web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, 
and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site.

Many Thanks.
Chris Davis
Moderator:  Blue Room mailing list 

Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 
CC BY-NC-ND

BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 23  [15 February 1998 - 12 April 1998]

661: Tsolyanu's Civil War
662: Chronology/History Questions
663: Pijena/Pijjena
664: On Trebuchets
665: More on Ghosts
666: Ghostly Response
667: Use of Slaves
668: More on Coinage
669: Polytheism
670: Cultural Objects
671: More on Polytheism
672: More on Polytheism
673: How Much Is Known Responses
674: More Use of Slaves
675: More on Use of Slaves
676: More on Ghosts
677: Looking for Players, Ann Arbor, MI
678: More on Slaves
679: More on Slaves
680: More on Slaves
681: Slave Rowers, Free Rowers, and Sailing Ships
682: Request for Information
683: Thoughts about a Web Site
684: Attitudes Toward Slaves
685: More Rowers and Sailing Ships
686: Churstalli
687: Ssu Cities
688: Web Site Ideas
689: The City of Ru
690: Tsolyani Interjections


*******************************

//661

[Moderator's Note:  Phil answers further questions from Charlie on numerous ]
[                   facets of the recent civil war.                         ]

I don't have all of the information you need because our playing group was
not at the sites of the battles (except one, briefly). Mostly our gamers
chose to operate in areas free of war and Sturm und Drang.

>When did open warfare begin between Dhich'une' and the other contending
>Tsolyani Princes ?

There were rumblings almost within a couple of months after Dhich'une's
"accession." The followers of both Mirusiya and Eselne complained bitterly
that they had been "invited" to a Kolumejalim that they could not attend
because it was so far away -- Mirusiya was just coming home from Tleku
Miriya, and Eselne was in northwestern Yan Kor and Pijjena. I can't recall,
but I think the first battles began inside of six months. Rereshqala joined
in later, when Dhich'une was on the point of seizing Jakalla.

Bob Alberti: are you reading this? Please look at your journals and put
dates in! I don't have them handy!

>When did the Salarvyani and the Mu'ugs' invade ?

The Salarvyani made an attempt to take Kerunan and the Kaija Protectorate.
They almost took Jaikalor. They did hold Hundranu Rise for a while. The
Gilraya Forests have practically belonged to the Salarvyani government of
Koyluga (and allied cities) for some time, although Tsolyanu claims them.

The Mu'ugalavyani quickly occupied Pan Chaka and performed another massacre
of Pachi Lei. They set up a puppet government in Butrus and occupied
neighbouring hamlets and agricultural regions. The Pachi Lei retreated into
their forests, and many became landless refugees in southern Tsolyanu. The
Red Hats are rumoured to be packing up and heading for home, now that
Mirusiya is in.

>Who were the principal generals for the various princes, the late emperor and
>the foreign forces ?

Kettukal acted for Eselne. Karin Missum and a number of other officers
helped Mirusiya. The new Ksarul candidate, Taksuru, was not a military man,
and he thus put his forces (from Bey Su and environs) at Mirusiya's
disposal. Rereshqala had a number of generals from the southern cities, but
I don't know exactly who.

>What legions and their foreign equivalents comprised the main striking forces
>of the respective armies ?

Can't answer this one; the situation kept changing, and the "mix" of
legions and officers did not seem to stay stable very long.

>Was disease/starvation or combat the greater killer in the war- and by what
>ratio ?

The Empire had had a fairly good harvest just before the war, and most
cities and towns had granaries full of food. Supplies were dwindling down,
however, and the war was about to get ugly when Mirusiya's forces broke
through the northern precipice behind Avanthar and came up through the
"basement." I doubt that more than a few people really starved, mostly
around Purdimal and Bey Su, where there was heavy fighting between
Taksuru's troops and Eselnes's -- and then between Mirusiya and Eselne.

>What Tsolyani territory do the Salarvyani and Mu'ugs still control ?

See above. The Red Hats made a concerted attempt to take Do Chaka, too, but
the "wild" Pe Choi of the forests hated them and stopped them cold. They
did lay siege to Tumissa very briefly at the beginning of the war, but they
couldn't hold out so far from home, with their supply lines constantly
harrassed by Pe Choi and Tsolyani irregulars. As far as I know, thus,
Mu'ugalavya still holds onto the remnants of its Pan Chake force, while
Salarvya has informally occupied the Gilraya Forests. The latter have
retreated out of Kaija and Kerunan.

Emperor Mirusiya (he may take another throne-name soon) is weighing the
odds of snatching part of Mu'ugalavya -- and/or some of western Salarvya.
But he other problems:e.g. Yan Kor.

>During what period was Baron Ald controlled by Dhich'une's faction ?

>From the time Dhich'une ascended the throne for about 3 months thereafter.
The Baron did not appreciate having his "superior" plot to kill him! He
thus retired to Ke'er to take care of many little uprisings and defections,

>What is the status of the Baron/Yan Kor now ?

He is still legally the ruler of Yan Kor. He has been spending his time
fighting, pleasing, cajoling, bribing, and threatening various local city
governments, Last I heard, Eber and Rulla were quiet again, after nearly
pulling loose from the "confederation."

>What naval activity has there been so far ?

Almosat none to speak of. The Governor of Penom had thought to bring ships
down to support one or another faction in Jakalla, but they never did go
through with it: too much risk of being cut off by other forces from
Thayuri and Vra.

>Thanks for the history.  My players may not always appreciate such
>information, but it improves the scenarios I write for them dramatically.

>- Steve Pisani
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.


//662

[Moderator's Note:  Professor Barker replies to Michael Schwartz and Charlie  ]
[                   Goering on their chronological questions.                 ]

>>Michael Schwartz writes...
>>Hey folks,

>>As I was browsing over various materials in preparation for my forthcoming
>>campaign, I began mentally jotting down all the "current" dates which I
>>discovered. The earliest is the default date listed in the "Swords & Glory"
>>rules; second is the approximate year in which the events chronicled in
>>"Man of Gold" unfold; third is the six-month span of time during which
>>Trinesh and companions are AWOL in "Flamesong"; lastly, we know the dates
>>associated with Dhich'une's reign.

>>The Dates in Question
>>======================
>>"Swords & Glory": 2356 AS
>>"Man of Gold": 2358 AS
>>"Flamesong": 2361-2 AS
>>Accession: 2361 AS
>>Deposement: 2368 AS

>>I do not recall any specific dates indicated in the solitaire books or
>>"Gardasiyal", although all certainly take place during the Dhich'une's
>>reign. Might I ask if the Professor, Bob or another of our stalwart
>>scholars of Tekumelani lore may have perhaps assembled a *modestly*
>>detailed chronology of the twelve year period between "Swords & Glory"
>>and the current date in Tsolyanu, one which encorporates and accounts
>>for the events occurring in the "Adventures on Tekumel" series?

That's very helpful of you, Michael. If I can get Bob Alverti motivated to
respond, too, we can perhaps put together a good compendium of dates for
recent history. For example, when was the Great Battle of Usenanu, in which
Eselne tried to come across the Missuma River and nearly got waxed by
Rereshqala's waiting troops on the east side? Some of our players saw part
of that.

[Moderator's Note:  Wasn't "nearly got waxed" not accurate?  He was waxed, ]
[                   just not "permanently"...  :)                          ]

>>Michael Schwartz    mschwartz@mindspring.com    Ann Arbor, MI  USA

>>Charlie Goering writes...
>>I am somewhat confused with the timeline for recent years given in The Known
>>History (Rev.1) by Shawn Bond.

Much of this period is obscure, with lots of rumour and guesses and
incorrect information substituting for the facts. I can't answer all of
your questions -- I did not keep track of each detail, and there were no
player groups on the scene to chronicle them.

>>The entry for 2364AS begins with the death of Emperor Hirkane, followed by
>>East and West Front war news. [Within a couple of months] The next item
>>mentions Prince Eselne's death
>>and revivification at Paya Gupa. 2364AS (early) speaks of the Mu'ugalavyani
>>invasion of the Chakas and then the entry for summer 2364-2365 tells of
>>Eselne returning and breaking the seige of Paya Gupa.

Sounds about right to me.

>>Did Eselne leave the city after the assassination (if, to where) and then
>>return, or did the Lady Sitlaya strike after the Red Hats were driven
>>back? The assassination attempt took place first; Eselne then left to
>>obtain troops returning from Yan Kor. He was thus briefly at Chene Ho and
>>Si'is.

>>Also, about the heading "summer 2364-2365AS". Does this indicate a
>>protracted
>>operation in breaking the seige, for example with a counter-seige
>>against the
>>beseigers?

Not too protracted, but long enough to cause some hardship.

>>Further, the entry for 2366AS (autumn) shows Eselne leading troops
>>toward Bey
>>Su and "bringing Hauma and Purdimal under hand". However, in 2376AS, he
>>"takes
>>Mrelu and Purdimal". What halted the advance of 2366, and what was
>>Purdimal's
>>status from 2366 to 2367?

Eselne's forces were met by Mirusiya's and Taksuru's legions west of Bey
Su. The troops from Paya Gupa and other western cities were perhaps only
halfhearted fighters anyhow -- they were fighting their own countrymen in a
civil war that did not seem to make much sense to the average Tsolyani.
Purdimal was neither a "Vimuhla-city" nor a "Sarku-city," and its location
in the swamps was a difficult nut for any siege force to crack. Eselne was
also faced with a strong challenge from Rereshqala, coming up from the
south. He knew that Bey Su would be hard to capture, and he was afraid his
tired soldiers (many hardly home from Yan Kor) would desert on him. With
harvests stnding in the fields, many men wanted only to return to their
villages.

>>Lastly, does General Kettukal still control the territory our departed-but-
>>greatly-mourned Prince held, or does he only control the immeadiate area of
>>Paya Gupa.

The leaders of Chene Ho were always rather pro-Chiteng/Vimuhla. Paya Gupa's
government is heavily under the influence of the Temple of Thumis. These
cities will buckle under to Imperial commands, the former willingly, and
the second less happily.

Tu'unmra is traditionally allied with Karakan, Hnalla,and the other Lords
of Stability., This is perhaps the hardest place to convert to Mirusiya's
way of thinking. These and other small areas will be remain disaffected and
not very loyal for a long time to come. Nobody predicts real strife,
however.

Kettukal has returned to Avanthar -- we saw him at the Accession
ceremonies. It seems that noble Mirusiya as "forgiven" him and confirmed
him in all of his honours, Kettukal may shortly retire, however, which is
just as well.

Regards,
Phil
-----


//663

[Moderator's Note:  I asked the Professor about the spelling of Pijena.  We ]
[                   have spelled it numerous ways in past messages.         ]

Both Pijena and Pijjena are common Tsolyani spellings. The word in
Pijjenani is actually "P'jena" with a glottal stop between the "p" and the
"j." Both the "p" and the "j" tend to be glottalised, therefore, giving a
strongly ejective force to them. The Tsolyani do not have glottalised
consonants -- in a word like "Dhich'une" one hears a syllable "Dhich-"
followed by a catch in the throat (the glottal stop) at the beinning of the
"-u-" syllable, then the "-ne" syllable somewhat more strongly (it's
"stressed").

As far as I recall, the preferred spelling in Mu'ugalavya is "Pijjena." I
have seen it spelled "P'jena" or even "P'jjena," however. Mu'ugalavyani
used to have glottalised consonants (cf. Ch'ochi), but these are no longer
employed, although some pedants insist they be written.

Be happy that English does'nt have a glottalised series!

Regards,
Phil
-----


//664

[Moderator's Note:  Leonard Erickson adds about Trebuchets.                   ]

>>The trebuchet was an interesting type called shaolekh (flowing-haired)
>>which instead of using a counter-weight was powered by muscle. At the
>>opposite end to the payload are a large number of hanging ropes. When
>>pulled in unison they can fling a projectile a good distance. One of the
>>advantages is that a small team of artillerymen can run a war-machine
>>supported by large teams of slave pullers. In the defence of a city
>>both public and private slaves are requisitioned to form these teams.
>
>I thought this type of machine was obsolete! Counterweights are the usual
>thing nowadays.

Traction trebuchets are quite interesting. My local SCA branch (Shire
of Dragonsmist) fields a couple of them in wartime. They can be
reasonably powerful. Their main drawbacks are that it takes a *lot* of
practice to properly synchonize the pullers. And while we haven't built
any *large* machines, it's rather obvious that with a large crew,
fasiling to let go of the rope at the end of the pull would be a good
way to get mangled if not killed.
-- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
-----


//665

[Moderator's Note:  Joe asks some more about Ghosts on Tekumel.  He would very]
[                   much like you folks who have gamed with the Professor to  ]
[                   share any experiences with the group.                     ]

An angent of mine has brought me some information, purportedly 
from another plane or timeline, hundreds of years after Mirusiya's 
ascencion, analysing the entire civil war as a clevery crafted 
Kolumejalim either planned by Hirkane or by the temple of Sarku 
in order to bring the most qualified to the throne, while supplying 
some much-needed social ditlana. I was gonna throw out as much of 
this as I could, once it gets fully translated, but there doesn't 
seem to be much give-and-take on the list these days. No one has 
taken up the gauntlet of my little request, via private email, or 
on the list. 

[That may be related to the bursty nature I have been operating the list with ]
[the past year or so.  But I'd still be intersted in seeing it.               ]

\To that end, I beg of anyone who has first hand accounts [of ghosts]
\to share them with the group, or with me (jpizzirusso@dttus.com). Any 
\sightings, interaction, conflicts, family histories, texts apocryphal 
\or beyond reproach, would be greatly appreciated.
     
Still hoping to latch onto something worth expanding into a worthy 
contribution to the mythos...
     
Joe
-----


//666

[Moderator's Note:  Keith Dalluhn responds to Joe Pizzirusso's request about ]
[                   ghostly encounters on Tekumel.                           ]

>[Moderator's Note:  Joe asks some more about Ghosts on Tekumel.  He would very]
>[                   much like you folks who have gamed with the Professor to  ]
>[                   share any experiences with the group.                     ]


from the notes of Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya, scholar high priest, Temple of
Thumis, Usenanu:

....After gaining access through the top of the building, we walked down a
small passage to a stairway.  Wen went down single file with Lord Arumel in
the lead.  We explored the next level down, which seemed to be a series of
sitting rooms and sleeping chambers.  When the all clear was sounded we
gathered together in the main room and decided to go down another level.  I
was going to take up my usual position as rear guard when I was drawn to
one of the rooms.  I sent the others ahead and made my way slowly to one of
the larger bedrooms.  As I stepped inside I was hit by a giant curtain of
emotion.  Anger, fear, remorse, and overwhelming sadness.   I looked to the
torn up bed and noticed the shape of a beautiful woman.   She looked to be
in her early 20s.  Her long black hair framed a delicately featured face.
As I watched she raised a hand and beckoned to me.  I walked over to the
bed, and reached out to take her hand.  I at first felt cold fingers touch
my hand, then a torrent of emotion and memories!  I closed my eyes tightly
against the flood.  It seemed like days she held my hand but could have
only been mere moments.  When I could open my eyes again, I was weeping.  I
was weeping for the many who had died in the siege of this place.  I was
weeping for the hatred this woman felt for the dragonlords.  I was weeping
because this woman had watched her own children killed by the soldiers who
laid siege here.  And I was weeping because I could do nothing about it.  I
made my way back down to where the rest of the party had gone.  In the last
basement of the tower, they had found a secret cubby hole with two books
inside.  The books were ancient and ready to crumble simply by breathing on
them.  They asked me to cast preserver of wisdom on them so they could see
what they were.  I complied although I already knew that one was the
records of this tower and it's lands and the other was the young woman's
diary.  I had watched as she put them here thousands of years ago.  I
turned away and made for the stairs again telling the party that should
anything be taken out of this tower, I would consider it tomb robbing.
With that I made my way back to the outside, and away from this heavy
pall.........


.....After we decided on our plan, I made my way down to the basement.  I
figured a couple of eyes and one of the small interfogulators would come in
handy.  I got to the outer chamber and was accosted by the guard.  I told
him I was sorry that he hadn't been replaced in the last three years, but
that I had been gone.  We worked out a deal and he headed back to his
family.  I opened the door and stepped inside the secret room.  I was
making my way to the cabinet with the eyes when I heard a noise.  I quickly
cast a light spell and looked to see many black shrouded shapes walking
toward me.  I must have let out a scream in fright.  I tried to talk to
these people but to no avail, they simply kept moving toward me.  I backed
away and reached into the cabinet for an eye and when I turned back around
I looked to see them turning into little motes of dust.  I swung around and
saw a figure silhouetted in the doorway.  The figure took a step inside and
I saw it was Ais.   May all the gods strike me dead if I wouldn't have been
dead 50 times by now without her here.  She rubbed her hands lightly as if
dusting them off and told me to get what I needed so we could leave. As I
grabbed the stuff I wanted I asked here who those figures had been.  All
she would tell me was that they were restless spirits and that I shouldn't
worry, I was safe.  I grinned at her and made my way for the door.....

-----


//667

[Moderator's Note:  Dwight Grosso asks about the use of slaves for oarsmen.]

>I was wondering whether or not any or all of the five nations use slaves for
>their ships oarsmen, or if they are citizens employed by the Nation as
>soldiers are. Thanks for any help clearing this up.
>Sincerely,
>Dwight Grosso

The Tsolyani, Mu'ugalavyani, Livyani, and Salarvyani all use slaves to row
their galleys. Non-rowing sailors, those who navigate and serve other
functions, on the other hand, are usually free: e.g. the crews of the
mercantile Tnek and other square-rigged sailing craft, marines and
fighters, etc. The Shen prefer human crews -- and often make nourishing
stews out of disobedient rowers. Some of the smaller seafaring nations use
only slaves (Haida Pakala), while others use free men (Yan Kor). Sa'a
Allaqi has access only to Lake Parunal and maintains only fishing boats and
"police" boats at the town of Kaitlan. Of course, slaves may sometimes be
mixed in with "free" crews, if the ship-owner happens to wish it, but
social classes are usually kept apart. There is no custom of noble persons
rowing galleys, of course -- or even taking one's beloved on a midnight row
on the river! Serfs, household slaves, etc. do this sort of thing, while
the gallant swain croons Engsvanyali odes to his maiden-love.

Regards,
Phil
-----


//668

[Moderator's Note:  Thomas Worthington asks more about the Kaitar.           ]
[                                                                            ]

>>The Kaitar is a small gold coin, usually with a much-simplified image of the
>>Imperial Seal on one side, and the throne-name and a date (in Tsolyani
>>numerals) on the other.
>
>Are the dates (and official dates generally) reginal or A.S.?
>
>Thomas Worthington

Almost always A.S. A few rare coins from the reigns of Shaira Su and Vayuma
Su are dated fom the Empress' accession year. Chack with the
coin-collectors in Bey Su; they can perhaps show you a few, although
they're a bit expensive.

Regards,
Phil
-----


//669

[Moderator's Note:  Scott Maxwell asks some more about the Gods of Tekumel.]

>Coming from a monotheistic tradition, I have a hard time relating to
>the polytheistic Tsolyani.  But are they even technically polytheistic?
>As I have become aware of it, the religions on Tekumel (at least the
>five Empires) are mystery religions.  What is revealed to a non-initiate
>is different from what an initiate knows is different from what an inner
>member knows, et cetera.

This is a hard question for monotheistic readers (Americans, Europeans,
etc.). The Tekumelani are indeed polytheists; there is no identification of
one or more of the gods as a "form" (Aspect, Avatar) of any of the others.
There are "mysteries," but these are each within its own sect's tenets,
they are not shared or common at some higher level. Thus, for example, the
Doctrine of the Immutable Indigo Veil is adhered to only in the Temple of
Lord Ksarul. It is one of the inner doctrines, with rituals and disciplines
that remain totally secret, even from less-advanced Ksarul-worshippers.
There is no tendency to join this doctrine with some of the inner mysteries
of Lord Belkhanu, however. That would be unthinkable to a Tsolyani who had
attained the level of the Inner Eye.

One should look to ancient Meditteranean cultures, or to modern India, for
examples of polytheism. I know that there are Hindu thinkers out there who
state that Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva all are part of One Supreme Being. But
I suspect that this concept owes something to the power and prevalence of
"monotheistic" British/American thought, however, just as many "modern"
Muslims want to explain polygamy away on one or another pretext.

>I am fairly certain that the average Tsolyani is quite ambivilent to
>the whole thing and would consider all of the recognized gods as gods --
>but with a bias to their own deity.  However, what I am curious about is
>what the priests, the fanatics, and the masters of the inner mysteries
>feel about their gods and their place in the scheme of things.

The priests, sincerely religious ("fanatic" is a term no one wants to apply
to him/her/itself!) people, etc. are educated and trained to treat each god
as real and as uniquely powerful and talented within a limited sphere of
activity. Thus, for instance, Lady Avanthe has jurisdiction over crops,
plants, air, rain, water, etc. None of the other deities handles these
phenomena in quite the same way. Most seem to feel that the gods "make up a
package": each has a role to play in the universe.

>Does each individual priesthood consider its deity to be "superior" to
>all other gods?  By that I mean, more powerful, more worthy of worship
>than its fellows.

Not to my knowledge. As said above, the Tsolyani deities are a package for
most believers. If your wife wants a child, and is having difficulty
conceiving, she goes to Lady Avanthe's shrine, even if her clan and
relatives all are card-carrying devotees of Lord Vimuhla. This is true for
Stability worshippers' funerals: everybody lets Lord Belkhanu's priests do
it. Of course, this cross-temple behaviour is only needed when something
unusual arises: as said above, omly when the wife *cannot* conceive and is
desperate for a child. The situation then demands that she consult a
"specialist."

>Are there "secret" truths that rewrite the mythologies to make each
>individual deity the supreme deity?  For example, are their secret
>"histories" in the Church of Ksarul where Ksarul is the creator deity
>and all of the rest are mere "false Gods"?  Or teachings in the cult of
>Karakan where that deity is the greatest deity, even beyond Hnalla

Not to my knowledge. No "false gods." If a "new deity" arises, the existing
sects either make it part of the "Aspect" system, or else destroy it. It is
difficult to imagine a "new deity" or school of thought arising at all, of
course, because of the pervasiveness of temple education and doctrinal
indoctrination. One recent example was the "Sect of the Orange Ball," which
arose among the Shen of Shenyu, but this was not a theological change --
only a change of practices and rituals.

>From my limited experiance and perspective, I would have thought that
>the gods would be worshiped in toto with a few "orders" of priests
>serving the individual god.  But this does not appear to be the case.

No, sorry! Those who accept the pantheon of Pavar must also accept the
concept of 20 separate Beings, who sometimes fight, sometimes cooperate,
and sometimes do otherwise. The system is similar to ancient Greece,
although not as limited and humanly personal.

>Could the religion of Pavar be characterized as 10 monotheistic
>religions forced into a polytheistic union?  (I am purposefully ignoring
>the cohorts because my brain is about to explode.)

I don't think the gods of Tekumel are "monotheistic" at all. They are about
as polytheistic as it gets, although the "package" might be considered a
loose linkage between them all.

>Please enlighten me.

>Scott Maxwell

I hope this helps. As noted above, this is one of the hardest areas of
Tekumel to explain to people raised in the Western European tradition.

Regards,
Phil
-----


//670

[Moderator's Note:  John Till asks about items that represent Tekumelani ]
[                   cultures.                                            ]

Here's a question for the experts:

A friend and I are preparing campaigns of the game Fading Suns.  We plan
to situate Tekumel into the setting as a Lost World, with which the
inhabitants of the Fading Suns universe will have some limited contact. 
In particular, I forsee some Tsolyani nobles and scholar priests as
visiting the Known Worlds of the Fading Suns universe.

Specifically:

What items are travellers from Tekumel likely to bring with them on a
long journey. I am thinking specifically about items of material culture
that would be distinctively or quintessentially Tsolyani. If you think
about the quarters of Spock or Worf, you get the idea.

[Moderator's Note:  I think a better way to phrase it, is what would the ]
[Tsolyani Legate to Livyanu take with him/her.  And vice versa.  The 1st ]
[thing I can think of would probably be Meshqu.                          ]

Thanks!
John Everett Till
-----


//671

[Moderator's Note:  Bob Alberti chimes in on Scott's question about the     ]
[                   Tekumelani Pantheon of Gods.                            ]
Scott Maxwell:
>>Could the religion of Pavar be characterized as 10 monotheistic
>>religions forced into a polytheistic union?  (I am purposefully ignoring
>>the cohorts because my brain is about to explode.)

Modern Tsolyani thought adheres to the doctrines set forth by Pavar, which
states that the Mitlanyal form a "team" so to speak.  Prior to Pavar, however,
I'm sure you could find a lot of people asserting that Ksarul, Vimuhla, or
Hnalla were Mr. Big, and everyone else was a second-rate God.  If these
questions have a hold on your imagination, you might want to place a 
campaign during the time preceding the Concordat and the First Empire, and
allow your players to romp through that enviroment while you hash over your
ideas.

Prof. Barker: 
>I don't think the gods of Tekumel are "monotheistic" at all. They are about
>as polytheistic as it gets, although the "package" might be considered a
>loose linkage between them all.
>I hope this helps. As noted above, this is one of the hardest areas of
>Tekumel to explain to people raised in the Western European tradition.

This was the reason why I eagerly and naively volunteered to write Mitlanyal
oh-so-many-years-ago.  I had the sense that if I could understand Tsolyani
beliefs as regard their theology, I'd have a good sense of Tsolyani belief
overall.  In retrospect I think that I was close-to-right, but not entirely
right.  

The Tsolyani worldview is, I believe, fundamentally different from our
Western thought to a greater degree because of their different view of
the role of the individual than because of a different theology.  The
Tsolyani view the individual as a much more intrinsic part of a collective
than do the fiercely individualistic members of America and the West in
general.  The theology of Ten Gods, Ten Cohorts, and Umpdiddly-illion
Aspects is reflective of that worldview, IMO, rather than formative of it.

The Tsolyani can wrap their minds around so many Gods and Aspects specifically
because they reflect that structure within their society.  An individual
is sort-of-like an Aspect of their Clan, which is in turn something like 
a God within the society, inasmuch as the collection of Clans creates the
whole of Society just as the collective of Gods make up the whole of
Deity.  

On the other hand, I do not mean to imply that there is any real relationship
between the two structures.  For example, hierarchy is much much more
important to the Tsolyani than it seems to be to the Gods.  The Tsolyani
arrange themselves in a strictly-ordered pyramid, while the Gods form
two opposing collections, with Hnalla and Hru'u as the nominal 'leaders'
of their groups, but all the gods more-or-less equal.  I say 'more or less'
because it is understood that their different roles give them dominance
in some areas:  Ksarul is easily the most powerful, magically speaking,
and only functions at about an equal level with the others because he
is unconscious and locked up in a room somewhere.  Belkhanu is the most
learned of the Many Planes, but Thumis is the most learned over-all.

So, like Tsolyani clans, each God plays his or her role.  But unlike the
clans, the Gods are less stratified - and the Cohorts are almost entirely
egalitarian, with maybe boring old Dra on the bottom of the pile.
-----


//672

[Moderator's Note:  Scott Maxwell responds to Bob's answer.                ]

>[Moderator's Note:  Bob Alberti chimes in on Scott's question about       ]
>[                   Tekumelani Pantheon of                                ]

>Scott Maxwell:
>>>Could the religion of Pavar be characterized as 10 monotheistic
>>>religions forced into a polytheistic union?  (I am purposefully ignoring
>>>the cohorts because my brain is about to explode.)

>This was the reason why I eagerly and naively volunteered to write Mitlanyal
>oh-so-many-years-ago.  I had the sense that if I could understand Tsolyani
>beliefs as regard their theology, I'd have a good sense of Tsolyani belief
>overall.  In retrospect I think that I was close-to-right, but not entirely
>right.

I would like to see this when it comes into print.  I regret now not
ordering the pre-publication edition.

>The Tsolyani worldview is, I believe, fundamentally different from our
>Western thought to a greater degree because of their different view of
>the role of the individual than because of a different theology.  The
>Tsolyani view the individual as a much more intrinsic part of a collective
>than do the fiercely individualistic members of America and the West in
>general.  The theology of Ten Gods, Ten Cohorts, and Umpdiddly-illion
>Aspects is reflective of that worldview, IMO, rather than formative of it.


That is what I rather understood.  My largest gap in understanding is how
and why individuals would be dedicated to a single god rather than to the
overall collection of gods.  I can understand a political division between
why one would favor one god over the other, but there is something so alien
to my monotheistic mind that I'm continuing to seek clarification.

I probably have the whole view of the recent civil war wrong, but it seemed
to be a bit of a religious coup.  With Lord Sarku (or at least his
followers) trying to usurp dominance from everyone else (religious or
otherwise).   Or the earlier uprising of the Vriddi, which I'm not sure
whether was a power play simply for the Vriddi or Vihmula in general.

The inclusion of the Inner Mysteries (whatever they might be) would seem to
indicate that the gods are more divisive (or maybe this is just their
priesthoods).  This is obviously not the case, as I have been informed, but
it is a difficult concept for me to comprehend in an intuitive way.

Thank you all for your help thus far,

Scott Maxwell
-----


//673

[Moderator's Note:  There were two answers to Dwight Grosso's question  ]
[                   about how much a player should know.  Back from msg ]
[                   646.  Here they are.  Not much new mail lately.     ]
[                   Seems like everyone is busy these days...  Some good]
[                   news on the horizon.  It appears that we will be    ]
[                   upgrading our Internet connection from ISDN to T1 by]
[                   early April.  This should help ftp speeds, and the  ]
[                   time it takes to distribute messages.               ]

jurrubin@imagin.net says...
 
>While rereading my copy of Empire of the Petal Throne, I stopped after I
>read some of the creature descriptions. Would players know about how to
>deal with certain kinds of creatures. Mrur, for instance, must have their
>bodies burned after they are defeated in combat. Would a player know that?

My companions and I either learn from our temple research (that which
is made available to us, of course) or through personal experience.
Although personal experience can be more accurate, I prefer informtion
gathered at our respective temples. It's not nearly as hard on the ol'
steel shield.
-- 
Jurrubin hiValshan
Clan of Crimson Ivory

-----
Gordon Neff responds...
        Friends:

"Empire of the Petal Throne characters might not have this
information, as they are assumed to be foreigners from smaller countries,
or travelling nonhumans..."

        That's exactly right. The purpose of the whole 'arrived on a small
boat in Jakalla harbor' is precisely to allow for the unfamiliarity of
20th-century Western folk with the ins and outs of this utterly unrelated
culture, disconnected (quite literally) from anything previously
experienced.
        Thus, the perfect niche exists here for Peter Lorre's character
from 'Casablanca' (as, indeed, he may be found -anyywhere-.) Greasily
polite, deferential yet nasty, and a fount of information not otherwise
available to the hulking nekulturniy gai-jin barbarians whose befuddlement
makes them so laughably easy to separate from their money...

        How much about the world would 'real' Tekumeli know? Well,
obviously, that depends on who they are, where they are... and who could
ever say? We ain't such-- we can only hope for a referee who works that
problem deftly.

                -G.
-----


//674

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff responds to the message on the use of slaves.]

"There is no custom of noble persons
rowing galleys, of course -- or even taking one's beloved on a midnight row
on the river! Serfs, household slaves, etc. do this sort of thing, while
the gallant swain croons Engsvanyali odes to his maiden-love."

        Really? Well, 'custom' is a tricky word, there-- I'm sure it's
nothing unusual for the basic brawny nineteen year old swordsmen to disdain
the effete foppery of having some... -audience-... doing no more effort
than ordinary campground-chore work, which he looks more masculine and
competent doing anyway.
        Unless of course that slave is the only one of the three who knows
how to -swim-...

                --G.
-----


//675

[Moderator's Note:  Tom Worthington and Sean Boomer comment on the Use of ]
[                   Slaves.                                               ]

>>"There is no custom of noble persons
>>rowing galleys, of course -- or even taking one's beloved on a midnight row
>>on the river! Serfs, household slaves, etc. do this sort of thing, while
>>the gallant swain croons Engsvanyali odes to his maiden-love."

>        Really? Well, 'custom' is a tricky word, there-- I'm sure it's
>nothing unusual for the basic brawny nineteen year old swordsmen to disdain
>the effete foppery of having some... -audience-... doing no more effort
>than ordinary campground-chore work, which he looks more masculine and
>competent doing anyway.
>        Unless of course that slave is the only one of the three who knows
>how to -swim-...

I think you've missed the point here - imagine we were talking about 
cleaning the sewers out. Would a nineteen year old swordsman (or 
woman) think that letting a slave do that is "effete"? Rowing a boat is 
low caste work even if it requires strength. Pulling a Chlen cart 
requires strength too and a bigger slave (i.e. the Chlen beast) is 
used to perform it but in the eyes of the noble there is no 
substantial difference between the beast the rows the boat and the 
beast that pulls the cart. Also, neither beast matters enough to count as an 
audience - unless the noble is the sort of person that won't undress 
in front of the family dog!
   The notion of pride in doing something only applies if the person 
thinks the task is worthy of their attention, i.e. if it is a "noble" 
activity for them. On Tekumel this is much more important than childish 
showing-off in front of your girlfriend.

Thomas Worthington

Sean Boomer writes...

In actual fact, in many slave owning cultures a slave "audience" would NOT
normally be a big deal.  In ancient Rome, for example, the poet Horace
writes that he liked to go out alone, yet a few lines later lets us know
that he is accompanied by an escort of two slaves.  As far as he is
concerned he IS alone.  Now, if the affair was terribly illicit, having
gossipy slaves around might be an inconvenience, but the lover (as many
ancient Don Juans did) could be as likely to slip the trusty oarsmen a few
coins to forget he saw anything as to pole the barge himself.

As per "effeminacy" - noble, rugged knights of the Middle Ages and stoic
senators of Rome were (or saw themselves as) very manly, rather macho, in
fact.  Yet they saw camp chores, and other manual tasks as anything but.  A
manly man swung a sword, but he got his peons to do the dirty work for him.
 Far from looking manly in the eyes of the girl, the wood chopping, or
barge poling lover would look like a low class turd.
-----


//676

[Moderator's Note:  Rick Sauter writes the following on Ghosts.             ]

        On the discussion of ghosts, and not entirely related to the real
world. Having long ago read "Kill The Dead" by Tanith Lee, and somewhat
based on the facts that ghost-hunting and the exorcism of malevolent spirits
exists in many Earth cultures, experiences of some of those of my PC's that
have journeyed about "haunted places", find indications there is a small
sect of people, mostly those who worship Qon, whose life mission is to
"convince" spirits to accept their fates and move further along the Pathways
of the AfterLife. This may be a secret society, or just a group of people of
unusual beliefs. One encounter with such a group noted that whilst mostly
composed of Qon devotees, a few Belkanu, and one Gruganu worshipper were in
the group. Speculating about the composition, one possible conclusion was
that Gruganu or his followers may have a vested interest in ensuring that
certain knowledges are better if removed from this plane.
        More than this much is speculation on our parts, mostly because
there seems little profit or gain to our people in pursuing this topic.
Rick
-----


//677

[Moderator's Note:  I'll continue to post these unless we start getting too ]
[                   many.  If we do, I'll collect and post them on a weekly ]
[                   basis in a single posting.                              ]
[                   Mike Schwartz is looking for a group of players in Ann  ]
[                   Arbor, MI.                                              ]

Serious, mature roleplayers with a interest in exploring storylines which
focus on social, political, and ethical issues wanted in the Ann Arbor,
Michigan area. Some familiarity with Tekumel is useful, but novices are
welcome. Sessions will be held on Sundays from noon until roughly 8pm,
once or twice a month as agreed upon by the majority of players.
Interested parties are encouraged to inquire by email to the address
listed below.

I prefer to work character details out with each player in one-on-one
character creation sessions, using roleplaying vignettes to flesh out the
personality and motivations of the character. These usually take an
evening to complete, at the end of which both player and myself have a
good idea of who the character is, as well as how the character typically
behaves and why. Keeping a journal written from the character's
perspective will be encouraged, although not mandatory.

As a rule, the only boundaries I prefer to set as gamemaster are those
implicit to the storyline and the setting. While I keep character creation
focussed and encourage roleplaying consistent with the character's
background and experience, beyond that I endeavor not to impinge too much
into my players' enjoyment of the game. I tend not to rely on the vagaries
of the die roll alone, and roleplaying, along with the needs of the story,
tempers the majority of my gamemastering decisions.

The game system to be used is still under consideration, and will be
chosen in part based on discussion with the players. If a more detailed
system is desired, I will likely use a hybrid of Chaosium's Basic Role
Playing and Columbia Games' HarnMaster 2. If a more freeform system is
desired, I will likely use a variant of Virgin Publishing's Time Lord,
Chaosium's Prince Valiant, or R. Talsorian's Castle Falkenstein.
Suggestions are welcome.

I look forward to hearing from you...

-- 
Michael Schwartz      mschwartz@mindspring.com       Ann Arbor, MI
-----


//678

[Moderator's Note:  Phil elaborates on the messages about slaves that have   ]
[                   come in.  This is the first of 4 or 5.  Sorry for the    ]
[                   usual delay.  Been a busy spring break.  Didn't get 2 of ]
[                   7 major projects done because I ran out of time.  We've  ]
[                   got 5 or 6 messages that will be coming out today. Enjoy!]

Your comments on attitudes towards slavery are well taken. In modern
European-American society there are "macho" standards, and there are also
"reverse" standards, where someone quite wealthy may pretend to be poor or
"lower-class" for social reasons. A very wealthy person may wear grungy
clothes, eschew a haircut, and speak like a stevedore -- all in the name of
"fashion." These fashions change with time.

When I was a boy my father and I owned a boat on Puget Sound. One day we
landed on one of the San Juan Islands -- lovely place -- and I went ashore
to walk the dog. I met an old man in a torn T-shirt and dungarees. We got
to chatting, and he politely offered me lunch. I never would have accepted
-- even then such adventures were dangeous -- but he pointed out of the
cove and said that lunch was about ready, and I was hungry. I followed him
-- and saw a magnificent yacht moored near the island. A man stood waiting
as we approached. He took us aboard, very deferentially, and led us to a
table covered with an elegant "brunch." The old man turned out to be one of
Washington State's great lumber barons! Appearances, to repeat a truism,
can be deceptive!.

As a contrary example, once in India I recall meeting a friend in the
bazaar, He said, "No one's here -- the place is deserted." I looked around
at the teeming crowd and realised that he was expressing "social
blindness": to him, the lower classes, labourers, merchants, etc. did not
exist except as objects to use if he needed them. However strong, talented,
etc. these people might be, they did not belong to his class-group and thus
were social "non-entities."  If some person of his class, religious sect,
educational level, etc. etc. had happened to be present, you can bet he
would have mentioned it!

On Tekumel the priesthood of Lord Ksarul runs a magnificent establishment,
with mighty temples, rituals, robes, pontifical objects, and symbols --
etc. The real leaders of the sect, however, often pose as humble temple
servants. I recall once when somebody demanded to meet an expert in the
"Inner Doctrines," he was taken to a chamber in the bowels of the great
temple, where he was introduced to a simple old woman who cleaned the
latrines! The priests of the "Outer Doctrines," he learned, are window
dressing; the real movers and shakers appear as the humblest of the humble.

Even European-American players can fall into this sort of confusion. I once
had a player who loved to gain one extra point for his character (in those
days we kept track of points and "levels") by killing a slave. He would get
his character up to one point away from the next level, then find a slave
or low commoner and kill him without provocation. Voila! One point and a
new level! This worked until one day he met the Undying Wizard Subadim the
Sorcerer resting under a tree. "Hah!" the player  cried, "Die, slave!"
Well, he never attempted to kill a peasant or slave again after that...

It is interesting to explore the Tekumelani attitudes towards class,
religion, and social classes. Practically every human social system exists
somewhere on the planet, and the nonhumans add yet another dozen
dimensions. Enjoy!

Regards,

Phil
-----


//679

[Moderator's Note:  Gordon Neff on the issue of slaves.                     ]

"Far from looking manly in the eyes of the girl, the wood chopping, or
barge poling lover would look like a low class turd."

        Ah, well, that's a BIT excessive, perhaps, but I take your earlier
point. As you say, the presence of a 'rowing machine' is scarcely to be
noticed, whether it be a slave or an outboard motor.
        Yes, I can see the logic there. It could even be a personal friend
of the swain, as Caswallon was to Tros of Samothrace (if I'm remembering
the name aright).
-----


//680

[Moderator's Note:  John Smith on the issue of slaves.                       ]

The Blue Room Mailing List wrote:

>Sean Boomer writes...

>In actual fact, in many slave owning cultures a slave "audience" would NOT
>normally be a big deal.  In ancient Rome, for example, the poet Horace
>writes that he liked to go out alone, yet a few lines later lets us know
>that he is accompanied by an escort of two slaves.  As far as he is
>concerned he IS alone.  Now, if the affair was terribly illicit, having
>gossipy slaves around might be an inconvenience, but the lover (as many
>ancient Don Juans did) could be as likely to slip the trusty oarsmen a few
>coins to forget he saw anything as to pole the barge himself.
> 

The whole point which moderns seem to have trouble grasping is simply 
that slaves are NOT people.  They are essentially appliances.  That 
swain would pay no more attention to that slave oarsman than we would to 
an outboard motor.

And if he's worried about slave gossip he just gets a deaf-mute, or 
maybe a blind one if practical.  In an extreme case, with State and/or 
Temple secrets involved, you just off the labour-force when done.

John
-----


//681

[Moderator's Note:  Steve Pisani writes on the slave issue.  Specifically in ]
[                   response to Message 675.  He then moves on to other      ]
[                   topics.                                                  ]

The mention of slave rowers in Blur Room post #675 made me think of two
others possibilities for Tekumel.

As I understand it, ships with slave crews on the ocean South of Tsolyanu
fight battles with one another that resemble this description of a battle 
off of Corcyra in 433 B.C.E.  The quote is from Thucydides:

" ...The fighting was hard, but not so much with matching skill with
skill,  but  because it resembled land-fighting more than anything else.  For
when the ships rammed each other they did not easily separate, because of the
numbers and the press of ships and because success in the battle was seen to
depend more on the fighting men on deck.
They fought a pitched battle with the ships immobilized.  Nor ere there any
examples of the Breakthrough [diekplous], but they fought rather with courage 
and physical strength then with tactical skill."

Not even well motivated and trained crews, like those above, can overcome
their leaders' stupidity.  However, if slaves were replaced with well trained
mercenaries or citizens, the results could prove interesting.  Here is a
description from Peter Connollys' Greece and Rome at War of  Polybius' 
account of the battle of Chios in 201 B.C.E.
He writes of the Rhodians and their extremely abel crews:

"...They had perfected the maneuver of breaking the line.  To do this, they
would charge head on and at the last moment, veer away, passing along one 
side of the enemy galley and if possible sweeping off its oars.  This maneuver
necessitated shipping their oars.  As they came out behind their [the enemy] 
line they would rely on their greater seamanship to enable them to turn their 
galley faster than their opponents so that they could ram  them whilst they 
were still turning, catching them with a shattering blow in the unarmed flank 
or even in the stern.

The Rhodians had also developed a technique when charging head on...just
before impact they must have plunged in their front sets of oars as if for 
a back stroke so that the stern of the galley lifted and the front plunged 
down under the ran of the opposing ship with the result that any damage to 
the Rhodian ship was above the waterline whilst the enemy ship suffered its 
damage along the bottom of the keel.  These two techniques combined must 
have had a devastating effect as their opponents did not know which one to 
expect."

Even with the most efficacious mixture of terror, training and plenty of
good food and water, slave crews could never be made to do as well.  Even if  a
they were, the high suicide rate among prisoners of all sorts offers a great
opportunity for vengeance.  A single oarsman could simply throw them self on
their oar as the coxswain called for one of the maneuvers above, or anything
requiring precision,  in the middle of a battle.  Slaves crews are fit only as
engines for fighting platforms.

The question is: What sort ships can be made can be made and used within the
limits of Tekumel's cultures, technology and magic?  I am assuming the idea 
here is to design something fun for role-playing an wargaming-and perhaps 
even sell a few miniatures ?

Can a magically powered equivalent of a cannon be built to work more
economically than a mage at sea throwing about the same amount of force 
the same distance ?

Can something like a caravel (sp?) or a galleon be built ?

If you put them together, can we work in some swashbuckling, piracy, Errol
Flynn style naval battles and a premise that doesn't wreck the existing 
society ?

Can you believe I haven't touched cannabis sativa in years ?
-----


//682

[Moderator's Note:  Jim Maliszewski would like some input from you guys.    ]

As many of you are aware, I'm planning on producing a new Tekumel website in
the coming weeks. I need as much input as possible. Considering the websites
that already exist, I'd like to ensure that I don't duplicate too much of
what they already provide.

What I hope to do is twofold. First, I want to provide my own players (who
are new to Tekumel) with information that will help them get a better "feel"
for the setting. Second, I'd like to do the same for others who are curious
about Tekumel, but feel intimidated by its complexity and depth. I guess my
hope is to produce a kind of online "Introduction to Tekumel." Does this
seem reasonable?

I understand this is a large undertaking. Nevertheless, I think it's a
worthwhile one. Peter Gifford's site in Australia does some of this.
However, what I want to do is a little different. I want to produce
something that geared more toward a roleplaying audience. I'd like to
provide potential roleplayers with resources and information that will help
them in the efforts to acclimatize themselves to Tekumel as a _gaming
setting_.

To that end, I need suggestions and commentary. Anything you can throw my
way would be great.

Thanks,
James       maliszew@interlog.com
-----


//683

[Moderator's Note:  Chuck Monson responds to Jim's request for info.       ]

Great undertaking to provide modern website for Tekumel..well, really for US
since you are blissfully throwing your life away for our entertainment...

My assumption is that some use of html will be used and perhaps other new
program options. There could easily be direct links to sites and files coded
in html for instant reference. Internal links could build on the massive files
already in the database (this will take time linking 682 messages by various
topics, but hey, what's another 25,000 years.) And I think a digital photo
catalogue of the Professor's artifact collection including a carved diety, a
sound recording of temple ceremony, and various iconography in support of the
spirit of the Tekumel world. A nice biographical file section on Professor
Barker and his various collegues in these projects. Even get legal permission
to show the covers of all the various materials in a slideshow room. 

[Moderator's Note:  Blue Room messages by our charter could not be put on a ]
[                   web site without express permission.  I would like to do]
[                   it at a later date if everyone is amenable.             ]

So what I am saying is that we can build a tremendous archival file database
that can be added a little at a time IF you all agree that is a direction
worth pursuing. After all, one day while sweating out some insidious plot for
your entertainment, wouldn't it be amusing to open a file and read the
original sources, listen to an accomplished rules master, or take inspiration
from the Professor to pursue your entertainment with integrity, knowledge and
a a bit of earthy humor.

And if this particular website doesn't have the staffing or space for such
undertakings, then at least provide the easiest linkages to other sites. The
Website can be part of a continuous pathway through the world of Tekumel. It
can be global and multi-lingual without hindering the operations of any one
site. Use the theme of nexus points or planar travel. Get multi-media capable!

And hey, let's save the oral tradition of Tekumel as well as the written one.
One of the greatest assets in the enjoyment of this game is the power and
humor (both dark and light) of our Professor. Over decades, he has touched
something in us and we often cherish that while taking our pleasure in his
fantasy world. If possible there should be a place called The Lecture Hall
where the words take sound and greater meaning. And we should have someplace
to hang his pic. Maybe in a place like The Lecture Hall others could present
papers for the edification of others, real research sourced for references on
subjects like town planning and architecture on the plains of northern India
during the late 17th century...you know, fun stuff. 
Chuck
[Moderator's Note:  If this conversation gets too big, we'll have to move it ]
[                   off to an email group.                                   ]
-----


//684

[Moderator's Note:  Ian Atkinson responds on the issue of slaves.           ]

The recent discussion comparing slave oarsmen with outboard motors has
reminded me of reading somewhere that the Egyptian heiroglyphic for slave
can be literally translated as "talking tool".

But I doubt that slaves who perform more sophisticated work than hard
physical labour would be regarded in the same way.  A wealthy Roman
can/could have a genuine friendship with a slave-secretary or concubine
while not regarding the labourers in his fields as being members of the
human race.

A Christian or Muslim might have difficulty taking a hard, Egyptian-style
attitude to slaves because of the belief that every person has a soul and
is capable of salvation/conversion.  I doubt that the Tsolyani are so
concerned about immortal souls, although some might be.  A jagji priest of 
Sarku might consider almost all breathing people to be animals.

Blanket statements about people's attitudes to slaves are likely to be
subject to exceptions depending on what sort of slave is being considered,
the "specialness" of the slave's occupation and other characteristics, and
really need a preamble about the society's general ethics and concept of
what humanity is. 

Ian.
-----


//685

[Moderator's Note:  Robert Goldman responds to Steve Pisani's article on     ]
[                   Rowers and Saling ships.  Starting to get away from      ]
[                   Tekumel here...                                          ]

Just a quick follow-up to Steve Pisani's quote from Thucydides.  I
will have to go home and check my reference works, but to the best of
my memory, the Greek rowers were not, as Steve implies, slaves.  The
fighting and rowing crews of the Greeks were free sailors.  Or, to
quote the Firesign Theatre, "not free...expensive."  

Here's what I find with a little e-search of an online Thucydides:

Indeed this armament that first sailed out was by far the most
costly and splendid Hellenic force that had ever been sent out by a
single city up to that time. In mere number of ships and heavy
infantry that against Epidaurus under Pericles, and the same when
going against Potidaea under Hagnon, was not inferior; containing as
it did four thousand Athenian heavy infantry, three hundred horse, and
one hundred galleys accompanied by fifty Lesbian and Chian vessels and
many allies besides. But these were sent upon a short voyage and with
a scanty equipment. The present expedition was formed in contemplation
of a long term of service by land and sea alike, and was furnished
with ships and troops so as to be ready for either as required. The
fleet had been elaborately equipped at great cost to the captains and
the state; the treasury giving a drachma a day to each seaman, and
providing empty ships, sixty men-of-war and forty transports, and
manning these with the best crews obtainable; while the captains gave
a bounty in addition to the pay from the treasury to the thranitae and
crews generally, besides spending lavishly upon figure-heads and
equipments, and one and all making the utmost exertions to enable
their own ships to excel in beauty and fast sailing. Meanwhile the
land forces had been picked from the best muster-rolls, and vied with
each other in paying great attention to their arms and personal
accoutrements. From this resulted not only a rivalry among themselves
in their different departments, but an idea among the rest of the
Hellenes that it was more a display of power and resources than an
armament against an enemy. For if any one had counted up the public
expenditure of the state, and the private outlay of individuals- that
is to say, the sums which the state had already spent upon the
expedition and was sending out in the hands of the generals, and those
which individuals had expended upon their personal outfit, or as
captains of galleys had laid out and were still to lay out upon their
vessels; and if he had added to this the journey money which each was
likely to have provided himself with, independently of the pay from
the treasury, for a voyage of such length, and what the soldiers or
traders took with them for the purpose of exchange- it would have been
found that many talents in all were being taken out of the
city. Indeed the expedition became not less famous for its wonderful
boldness and for the splendour of its appearance, than for its
overwhelming strength as compared with the peoples against whom it was
directed, and for the fact that this was the longest passage from home
hitherto attempted, and the most ambitious in its objects considering
the resources of those who undertook it.

I believe another passage makes it clear that the oarsmen were also
the fighting seamen and not simply slaves:

"Cnemus, Brasidas, and the other Peloponnesian captains allowed
themselves to be persuaded by the Megarians to make an attempt upon
Piraeus, the port of Athens, which from her decided superiority at sea
had been naturally left unguarded and open. Their plan was as follows:
The men were each to take their oar, cushion, and rowlock thong, and,
going overland from Corinth to the sea on the Athenian side, to get to
Megara as quickly as they could, and launching forty vessels, which
happened to be in the docks at Nisaea, to sail at once to Piraeus."

Again, to the best of my memory, the issue in the battle that
Thucydides is describing is NOT the question of absence of skilled
crews, but the scale of the battle.  I could be wrong about the latter
--- by the end of the Peloponnesian war the supply of skilled crews
might well have been depleted.

Best Regards,

Robert Goldman
-----


//686

[Moderator's Note:  David Peters asks about the Churstalli.                ]

>      I was recentely reading the Missum rules and I found a race
> called the Chrystalli listed among the list of non-humans.  And I
> checked the Tekumel Beastiary it is not listed.  I am wondering if
> they might be Hokun renamed later on.

The correct spelling is indeed as you mentioned, Chris: "Churstalli" (the
"u" has the umlaut two dots on it). This species is mentioned on pp. 17,
18, 20, 54, and 56 of "The Tekumel Bestiary." As far as is known, these
beasts are not related to the Hokun but instead seem to have been brought
to Tekumel from one of the Pe Choi worlds, apparently as zoological
curiosities. They survived the Fall and are actually expanding their
territory beyond the frontiers of the Galai Desert in Mu'ugalavya.

>      P.S.   I would also like to thank you for allowing Carl Brodt to
> reprint alot of old Tekumel material like the last three army lists,
> Swords and Glory Volume II, and Legions of the Petal Throne.  I have
> been trying to get this books for sometime.

Regards,

Phil
-----


//687

[Moderator's Note:  Tim Lowe asks about Ssu cities.  I passed it to the Prof]
[                   but any others that have suggestions can "chime" in...  ]

>I am beginning a new D&D campaign for my players on Tekumel. I am looking
>for some info. on what Ssu cities are like. All I have found is that their
>cities are underground. If any of your characters have ever seen a Ssu
>habitation and lived to tell of it I would love the details.

The Ssu once had large surface habitations: at Ssuganar there are maze-like
rooms of no apparent purpose, with high ceilings and twisted,
distorted-appearing pillars. These chambers are connected by tunnels and
passages, which end in small chambers and what are called "wells" (vertical
shafts) of no great depth. Some rooms are "decorated" with wavy patterns
and designs of interlocking circles. The uses of some rooms are
identifiable: kitchens, armories, storage bins, etc. But the majority are
inscrutable. These obervations will be found in the writings of the
Pechani, particularly Na'ath Khor of Mechaneno. One cannot get much closer
to the Ssu than Mechaneno.

Why anyone would want to go closer to Ssuyal than Mechaneno is beyond me.
It's a cold, windswept, barren mountainous wasteland.

>Also in my copy of Tekumel Beastiary seems to be missing the stats on the
>Hokun(the crystal fellows) if any one has these available I would
>appreciate stat line.

This appears to be a real mistake on my part! Sorry! Treat the Hokun
roughly like the Pe Choi for "stats."

Regards,
Phil Barker
-----


//688

[Moderator's Note:  James Maliszewski is asking that any other web ideas be ]
[                   sent directly to him.                                   ]

While a website such as Chuck describes would be very useful in many
respects, it's quite beyond the scope of what I had in mind. I have a job, a
wife, and a Ph.D. in philosophy to complete this year. I do indeed want to
produce a resource of use to as many people as possible, but the emphasis
will be on _roleplaying_ in Tekumel rather than scholarly pursuits such as
those mentioned. While I agree with Chris in that these materials should
eventually be put online, that's another project entirely.

To avoid cluttering the Blue Room, I would recommend that anyone who has
ideas and suggestions for a roleplaying-oriented Tekumel site should e-mail
me at maliszew@interlog.com. I'm more than happy to listen to new thoughts
on this topic. My own campaign is entering character generation tonight, so
I'll probably have some material on that topic on the site. As the campaign
grows and enters new areas, so will the site.

Thanks,
James
-----


//689

[Moderator's Note:  Tom Ladegard asks about the City of Ru.                ]

I'm doing some layout work for my upcoming campaign and was wondering if
anyone could gove me some information on the cities of Ru in the Kerunan
protectorate and Mmilaka, just on the other side of the border.  Thanks
in advance, any background information would be helpful.

- Tom Ladegard
-----


//690

[Moderator's Note:  James Maliszewski asks about Tsolyani Interjections.    ]

I've noticed that spoken Tsolyani (as represented in Professor Barker's two
novels) seems to have a large number of interjections unique to it, such as
La, Cha, Ohe, and others. I was wondering if anyone had collected them all
and determined their precise usage. Or has this already been dealt with in
the various Tsolyani language treatises?

If not, I thought this sort of thing would lend a little bit of color to the
speech of NPCs and even PCs in Tekumel RPG campaigns.

James
-----
Chris Davis      Moderator, The Blue Room        blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site:  http://nexus.prin.edu  or  ftp://nexus.prin.edu
Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.
